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Canada thanks antivaccinationists for the mumps

Posted in Respectful Insolence by Skepdude on August 27, 2008

I’ve been sarcastically “thanking” Jenny McCarthy for bringing the U.S. the gift of measles through her tireless efforts on behalf of Generation Rescue and other antivaccine groups and will continue to do so whenever I deem it appropriate. But Jenny isn’t the only one who deserves our “thanks” (no, I’m not going to thank Andrew Wakefield again). Let’s not forget all those religions who, either because they think vaccines are messing with God’s will or because of some interpretation of a holy book written in prescientific times, religions like this one in Canada:

READ THE REST OF THIS ENTRY AT “RESPECTFUL INSOLENCE”

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17 Responses

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  1. IGG said, on August 27, 2008 at 6:12 PM

    test

  2. IGG said, on August 27, 2008 at 6:13 PM

    I think my last message didn’t go through, so, I’ll retype it.
    “Stop asking me questions about DTP and DTaP and Rubella and the National Vaccine Injury, because I can’t answer them for you. You will have to go to your doctor to get those answers.”

    You don’t know because you didn’t stop to ask questions before ranting. Know stuff before ranting about it.

    Advantages outweigh risks, that’s the theory you have right? Let’s take the case I’m mentioning here, will you?
    continued…

  3. IGG said, on August 27, 2008 at 6:14 PM

    Let’s take Rubella. What are the risks of having rubella to a Boy/Man.
    “Rubella is a common childhood infection usually with minimal systemic upset although transient arthropathy may occur in adults. Serious complications are very rare. If it were not for the effects of transplacental infection on the developing foetus, rubella is a relatively trivial infection.”

    Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubella

  4. IGG said, on August 27, 2008 at 6:15 PM

    Now tell me, why do I need to vaccinate my son for Rubella, when the side effect of MMR include, in rare cases albeit, but does include the following:
    Severe Problems (Very Rare)

    * Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses)
    * Several other severe problems have been known to occur after a child gets MMR vaccine. But this happens so rarely,
    experts cannot be sure whether they are caused by the vaccine or not. These include:
    o Deafness
    o Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
    o Permanent brain damage

    Source: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm#mmr

  5. IGG said, on August 27, 2008 at 6:17 PM

    Give me one good reason why I should inject my son with Rubella vaccination?Just one frigging good reason, please!! Will ya? Doesn’t Rubella give you the example of vaccination against anything and everything?

  6. Skepdude said, on August 27, 2008 at 9:58 PM

    Have you spoken to your doctor about your concern with Rubella? Is he not answering your question or do you simply not like what he’s telling you?

    Furthermore, don’t forget this is an aggregator site. If you have specific questions about an entry that is being pulled from another blog, you should also comment on the original blog. In this case, Respectful Insolence is written by a real doctor.

    Secondly, you seem to bring up the Rubella thing a lot demanding why it should be given if it is rare. Why are you so set against it? The severe problems which according to your quote are very rare, are they not?

    Isn’t it true that not so rarely people die while driving their cars? Why don’t you go around demanding to know why people are still driving?

  7. Skepdude said, on August 27, 2008 at 10:04 PM

    From Wikipedia, which you youself quoted:

    “The disease can last one to five days. Children recover more quickly than adults. Infection of the mother by Rubella virus during pregnancy can be serious; if the mother is infected within the first 20 weeks of pregnancy, the child may be born with congenital rubella syndrome (CRS), which entails a range of serious incurable illnesses. Spontaneous abortion occurs in up to 20% of cases.”

    Do the issues stemming from the mother being infected answer your question why it is needed?

    Let me quote some more from Wikipedia:

    1-In most people the virus is rapidly eliminated. However, it may persist for some months post partum in infants surviving the CRS. These children are a significant source of infection to other infants and, more importantly, to pregnant female contacts

    2-Rubella can affect anyone of any age and is generally a mild disease, rare in infants or those over the age of 40. The older the person is the more severe the symptoms are likely to be. (this should answer your question why your boy should be vaccinated. Anyone can get it.!)

    3-Rubella can cause congenital rubella syndrome in the newly born. The syndrome (CRS) follows intrauterine infection by Rubella virus and comprises cardiac, cerebral, ophthalmic and auditory defects.[4] It may also cause prematurity, low birth weight, and neonatal thrombocytopenia, anaemia and hepatitis. The risk of major defects or organogenesis is highest for infection in the first trimester. CRS is the main reason a vaccine for rubella was developed. Many mothers who contract rubella within the first critical trimester either have a miscarriage or a still born baby. If the baby survives the infection, it can be born with severe heart disorders (PDA being the most common), blindness, deafness, or other life threatening organ disorders. The skin manifestations are called “blueberry muffin lesions.” [5] (Does this not answer your question why we need the vaccine?)

    Have you even been reading the source you quote, Wikipedia, or are you just on a rant?

    You want to know why you should vaccinate your son? Because if we didn’t vaccinate our sons and daughters, you may not even have had a son to begin with. Think about that next time you rant against vaccines.

  8. IGG said, on August 28, 2008 at 9:32 PM

    Your comment system can’t take some texts.
    You probably didn’t read my post correctly, I said, why should I inject my son with Rubella vaccination. Men don’t get pregnant, okay?

    Secondly, the side effects are rare, I agree, but what is the benefit of Rubella vaccination for a BOY child? None!! It’s the risk to benefit ration that’s of concern, right? Girls, on the other hand, should be vaccinated with Rubella, as the benefits are more than risks. See my point?

    Do you know why, then, a boy child is vaccinated with Rubella vaccination? I’ll tell you why. It’s more expensive for insurance and vaccination makers to create a MM and a separate MMR vaccination. So, they will save some cost at the expense of your son being injected with something that he does not need!! Go defend that.

    Oh, by the way, I did ask my doctor about it, and she agreed that there is no benefit of vaccinating a _boy_ child with Rubella. Ask your doctor and see what he/she says. Ask specifically about Rubella and Boy child.

    BTW, here is a good book http://www.amazon.com/What-Doctor-About-Childrens-Vaccinations/dp/0446677078/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b

    It’s written by a doctor also. It’s NOT a anti vaccination book. It just tells you what are the risks and benefits, and lets YOU make the judgment what’s the ratio you are comfortable with.

    See, you are not a doctor, but you go about ranting, and you decide not to even read up enough. It’s easy to rant in a blog, but not so easy to gather the information and make a correct decision.

    I think I cleared up the Rubella point for _boy_ child, would like to hear if you agree. On the same note, I’ll give you another example.

  9. IGG said, on August 28, 2008 at 9:32 PM

    Years back, all the vaccinations used to include a chemical called thermisol, a mercury compound used as preservatives in childrens vaccination. It was clear eventually that thermisol is bad for kids (yes, it is proven to cause neurological disorders and is toxic to body, especially to small kids). You can read about the compound here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermisol

    So, the drug manufacturers removed it from the vaccinations. All the childrens’ vaccinations DO NOT contain any thermisol anymore. So, it is agreed by even the vaccination companies and your coveted FDA that thermisol is bad and it is removed….
    …..

    However, if you vaccinated your child with Flu vaccine, you just injected him/her with the same mercury compound. Here is a quote from you great FDA site:

    “Thimerosal has been removed from or reduced to trace amounts in all vaccines routinely recommended for children 6 years of age and younger, with the exception of inactivated influenza vaccine (see Table 1).”

    http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm#intro

    The thermisol free flu vaccination is available in very limited quantity even in US. Most of the common flu vaccines for kids are thermisol based. Why?

    Yes, I have asked this to my doctor, and she actually didn’t have an answer for this Why, which I expect, as it’s less of a medical decision on FDA’s part, more of a lobbying business decision. See my point.

    We decided to pay a hefty sum from our pocket to get the thermisol free flu vaccination for our child. But not everyone is that lucky/resourceful… clearly you are not. So, stop getting on the bandwagon of non-vaccine bashers and do some research on your own. It’ll be best for your child.

  10. Skepdude said, on August 29, 2008 at 4:34 PM

    Either you’re not understanding or you don’t want to understand. If your boy is not vaccinated, he runs the risk of contracting the disease, which on it’s own is reason enough to vaccinate him.

    Second, if lots of little boys get the disease they can infect pregnant women, which can end up killing their babies, and a lot of little boys and girls would be still born.

    Or your little unvaccinated boy can give the disease to an older, frail person who sill suffer much more from it than a young strong boy.

    All of this is coming from Wikipedia which you first quoted so you must accept me quoting it.

    Go back an read my comment #7. Now if you take the position that you don’t give a crap about anybody else, then you’d be justified to keep screaming about Rubella.

    Why are you so against this vaccine anyway? You haven’t yet said what is there to be lost by your son getting the vaccine. It will offer protection to him from a disease, even if not a life threatening one. You should be glad that they’ve combined them in one vaccines so your son and my daughter get only one shot as opposed to three.

  11. Skepdude said, on August 29, 2008 at 4:35 PM

    By the way your book contains the phrase ” your doctor doesn’t want to tell you” which suggests to me that it is a pile of crap. I wouldn’t rely too much on it, if I was you.

  12. IGG said, on August 29, 2008 at 7:00 PM

    So your case for Rubella vaccination is:
    1. The boy can get it. But if the disease is completely harmless for a boy, why vaccinate against it. This is exactly my point is, do not vaccinate against anything and everything, vaccinate against things that are high risk. I mean, you won’t want to vaccinate your kid against eczema if one is available, if the side effect, in rarest of cases, is brain damage… right?

    2. He can give the disease to a pregnant woman. I mean, what kind of reason is that? Is the woman not vaccinated with Rubella vaccine? If she can even get the Rubella then what’s the point? This is the lamest reason.

    3. You know what, Rubella does not cause any long term damage or death , and isn’t really a serious disease in anybody, even elderly, except a fetus. Show me one document that contradicts this claim. Ask your doctor, and he she will be telling you exactly what I said. Then why vaccinate against it when the side effect, in, I repeat, even RAREST of the cases, cause brain damage.

    I’m not against vaccination. I’m against vaccination for anything and everything. Vaccinations were tremendously successful in eradicating some deadly diseases. But what’s happening now is, the vaccination companies are firing their gun on the shoulder of that success, and parents like you have got blind _faith_ in them. What I’m asking you (and other parents) is, read up a little.

    For the book, I was very skeptical too, just like you, when I read the title. Yes, I also believed that anything “What your * won’t tell you” and “* for dummies” are also crap. But take my word, and just get it for once and read it. It’s just 11 bucks (and no, I’m not the author :-)). You can always verify the information in the book with your doctor or other sources.

    The good part of the book is, it doesn’t speak against vaccinations, it just gives you more information. This is NOT and anti-vaccination book. It’s more about information of cons AND PROS of individual vaccinations.

    FYI, my son is mostly vaccinated, but not completely. Because, he doesn’t need some vaccinations. And we have made this decision not on our own, but after discussions with our pediatrician and on HER recommendation, and tests we performed (by paying from our pocket). However, you won’t find many docs who will be open to discussing medicine with you, UNLESS you come up with valid questions.

  13. Skepdude said, on August 29, 2008 at 8:47 PM

    Sounds reasonable. Nevertheless, you don’t seem to take into consideration the issue of herd immunity when you say it is lame to vaccinate a boy because a pregnant mother can get sick from him.

    Yes the point of the vaccine is to prepare the body so it can fight the disease. Nevertheless, just like anything else that was man made, vaccines are not 100% effective. I don’t know what that number is for the Rubella one, but one thing I can pretty much guarantee is that it is not 100%.

    Second, vaccines are meant to be preventative, not a drug that fights a disease. As such, we can’t just give them to some people, as you suggest by saying your son does not need it. If we did not vaccinate the vast majority we’d loose herd immunity. That would create a pool of unvaccinated individuals in which the germ/virus could live and mutate, and thus increase the chances that vaccinated pregnant mothers will get it and children will be born dead. That dead child could have been your son or my daughter. Death does not discriminate based on gender. To me that is high risk.

    But no matter how much you and I go back and forth here, we’re both missing one important point. Neither one of us is an expert in the field of medicine. We are not doctors. Yes you bought a book which you believe/agree with. Do you think that all the “secrets” of vaccines can be bought for $11? All the science, history in a paperback sold at Amazon? Come on, give me a break here.

    When you get on a plane do you start second guessing the pilot over what he’s doing? When you go to court do you pick up a book on western law and start telling your lawyer how best to defend you? Of course not. There is a reason why people specialize on things.

    Do I trust my doctor? Yes, otherwise I wouldn’t go to her. But what do you mean by trust? I trust that this person has the knowledge and the ability to do what’s best for my daughter. I am not afraid that she’s gonna pump my baby up with poisons, as some people claim. There is a word for that, and it is PARANOIA.

    The funny thing is that in an earlier post you complained that these doctors don’t test you after prescribing some antibiotics. My parents, who are just as paranoid about the medical profession in the USA, are always complaining that the doctors are sending them in scores of useless tests because they want to make as much money as possible. Who should I believe?

  14. Skepdude said, on August 29, 2008 at 9:00 PM

    Here’s a link to the WHO (World Health Organization) position paper on the Rubella Vaccine.

    http://www.who.int/immunization/wer7520rubella%20_May00_position_paper.pdf

    I would say this is more relieable info than a YouTube video. Here’s an excerpt from the Summary and Conclusions (starting on page 162-the second page of this 12 page pdf file)

    “Rubella occurs worldwide and is normally a mild childhood
    disease. However, infection during early pregnancy
    may cause fetal death or congenital rubella syndrome
    (CRS); the latter characterized by multiple defects, particularly
    to the brain, heart, eyes and ears. CRS is an important
    cause of hearing and visual impairment and mental retardation
    in countries where acquired rubella infection has
    not been controlled or eliminated.”

    Read carefully it can affect the brain, heart, eyes, ears. It can cause hearing and visual impairment and mental retardation in countries where the infection ahs not been controlled or eliminated. Through vaccination that is.

    “Although the burden of CRS is not well characterized in all
    countries, it is estimated that more than 100 000 cases occur
    each year in developing countries alone. Caring for CRS
    cases is costly because of the permanent disabilities caused
    by this condition. Cost-benefit studies in developed as well
    as developing countries have demonstrated that, when
    combined with measles vaccine in countries with coverage
    >80%, the benefits of rubella vaccination outweigh the
    costs.”

    You’re gonna jump on this one:

    “The primary purpose of rubella vaccination is to prevent the ocurrence of congenital rubella infection including CRS. Two approaches are recommended: (a) prevention of CRS only,
    through immunization of adolescent girls and/or women
    of childbearing age; or (b) elimination of rubella as well as
    CRS through universal vaccination of infants and young
    children (with/without mass campaigns),surveillance,and assuring
    immunity in women of childbearing age.”

    It is simple really, if you reduce the carriers of the virus by vaccinating them, you reduce the risk of CRS. What your argument amounts to is screw the pregnant mothers, my boy will never be pregnant so I don’t care! That does not sound very humane to me, but I have a daughter so I may be a little biased.

  15. IGG said, on August 29, 2008 at 9:05 PM

    “My parents, who are just as paranoid about the medical profession in the USA, are always complaining that the doctors are sending them in scores of useless tests because they want to make as much money as possible. Who should I believe?”

    Both. Yes, I think they do more tests than other countries here, on the other hand they sometimes don’t do some tests where they are necessary to cut pennys. But it’s not about tests…
    See, my point has nothing to do with tests… my point is, here doctors don’t have free will due to multiple factors. This is a very litigative society, so, doctors take the safest path for them (but may not be the best path for your kid). The whole medical system is controlled by insurance companies, so, doctors wouldn’t want to get black-listed (yes, they can). You can counter these by educating yourself, or deciding that the insurance company’s medical group knows what’s best for your kid.

    For the book, that’s not the only book I read. As I said in my other post, my wife is a microbiologist, and we have been reading a lot of papers/journals (thanks to her university affiliation, we get access to a lot of stuff that you’d have to buy otherwise). However, that book is a good starting point. It’s some information, not all… but it’s more than nothing.

    That’s all I have to say. Good luck.

  16. IGG said, on August 29, 2008 at 9:23 PM

    Okay, just read this article for starter. Remember, I’m not against vaccination. I’m against some of the vaccinations in the way they are administered today.
    http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/family/06/19/ep.vaccines/index.html

    Look at the list of vaccine changes requested by parents. How do you find those unreasonable? Even if you believe vaccines are safe, which most vaccines are, won’t you want to make them even safer?

    The article quotes Dr. Richard Frye, assistant professor of pediatrics and neurology at the University of Texas Medical Center at Houston. I guess he is saying things for money. One quote:

    “I’ve never understood why we give this at birth,” said Dr. Richard Frye, assistant professor of pediatrics and neurology at the University of Texas Medical Center at Houston.

    Hepatitis B is spread by having sex with an infected partner, by sharing needles, by sharing razors or toothbrushes with an infected person or by contact with blood or open sores of an infected person.

    “I don’t know babies who have sex or share needles,” said Dr. David Traver, a pediatrician in private practice in Foster City, California.

    Lavin says that instead of giving the hepatitis B shot at birth, he routinely gives it when a baby is 2 months old.

  17. IGG said, on August 29, 2008 at 9:30 PM

    Okay, I’d just ask you two questions. Please give me a direct answer in yes or no, and that should close this argument:

    1. Do you believe thermisol is a toxic compunt?
    (YES | NO)

    From Wikipedia:
    “Few studies of the toxicity of thiomersal in humans have been performed. Animal experiments suggest that thiomersal rapidly dissociates to release ethylmercury after injection; that the disposition patterns of mercury are similar to those after exposure to equivalent doses of ethylmercury chloride; and that the central nervous system and the kidneys are targets, with lack of motor coordination being a common sign. Similar signs and symptoms have been observed in accidental human poisonings. The mechanisms of toxic action are unknown. Fecal excretion accounts for most of the elimination from the body. Ethylmercury clears from blood with a half-time of about 18 days, and from the brain in about 14 days. Inorganic mercury metabolized from ethylmercury has a much longer clearance, at least 120 days; it appears to be much less toxic than the inorganic mercury produced from mercury vapor, for reasons that are not understood.[9]”

    2. Will you inject your kid with something that will protect him from some strains of Flu with something that has thermisol?

    (YES | NO)

    Just a straight Yes No answer please?


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